T.A.B. – FW: The Case of Farmers in #newfw

The T.A.B. – FW series, Tweaking A Better FW, focuses on discussing the different mechanics of Faction Warfare, their strengths and flaws, and the different ways those mechanics affect Faction Warfare.

Today I would like to discuss one side of the Cal-Gal war that is not as visible as the one inside the EVE client but that is every bit as entertaining. Discussing that war will obviously also have me address the accusations of “spamming” I have received recently and the campaign that has been started to “blame” me, so in the best case this article might be a lesson in good game design, worst case it might be a good old salt-filled drama piece surrounding FW.

First off, I will start by saying I haven’t been able to login into EVE in a while. Real Life and moving around  has been getting in the way at possibly the worst time. I mean, it’s not like I’m the target of a smear campaign right now, no big deal, EVE can wait… But, despite priorities being priorities, I did find the time to participate in that little initiative that is the #newfw channel on Slack (good thing that it doesn’t ask for a reliable connection). Anyway, as the linked article showed, some people have not been very fond of that participation. To the point of starting all the ruckus of that “Blame Dantelion” thing.

So, the #newfw channel. To make you better understand what happened there, I will talk a bit about my own experience of FW. My Corp lived in the system of Manjonakko. It is a Caldari system a few jumps away from Asakai and Okkamon, which are both two important Caldari systems (I will probably explain why in future articles) and better places to settle in. Manjonakko is also a couple of jumps away from the Ishomilken gate to high-sec, but the frequent gatecamps and activities of notorious pirate groups such as Sons Against Humanity, The Bastards, and even the respected Stay Frosty of A Band Apart, all those make the Ishomilken gate almost as enticing to use as the Tama gate… So most people instead use the Ikoskio gate next to Asakai and Okkamon. To sum it, Manjonakko is the not the best system to settle in. The market is better in Okkamon, and Asakai is closer to high-sec.

Yet this is the system my Corp chose to settle in. Why? Because the system was farmed to death!

Farmers Galore

See, the location of Manjonakko, far away from the overpopulated Okkamon, is rarely used by the Caldari, and is the start of a long pipe of systems with zero Caldari in them. All those made it the perfect o-plexing ground for all the Gallente living near Sujarento, Nisuwa, and Heydieles. So to counter that, SQUIDS decided to base themselves in the system. And we managed to make Manjonakko Stable again. But we still had two problems:

  1. The systems around Asakai and Manjonakko still had high contested levels. Anyone that lived there can attest to Elunala (fuck that place and its Medium btw), Ikoskio, and Mushikegi constantly being above 70%.
  2. Even with the system stable, farmers could still downgrade the levels of the system and put more pressure on the Caldari tier.

Thus I spent the very first months of my EVE career surrounded by plex farmers that would go to a safe as soon as I entered system. At the time, I used to have a catchphrase, and if RiverrKing is still around he can attest to that, which was ‘no fight no plex’ and then I would waste my time waiting for the farmer to come and try to retake his plex. Only to see the farmer leave system, and think I had ‘won’.

Of course that was naive. But I was innocent at the time and could not imagine that people could stay one system away from the guy who just pissed on their turf! And of course that’s what they did. After wasting my time in the plex, I would see the same guy still plexing one system away.

This is how I learned that chasing farmers was as fun as chasing that fucking rabbit in Mario 64 (except that at least the fucking rabbit dropped something)! This is also how I noticed that the population of farmers actually managed to get the Caldari ever closer to the dreaded 20.0% of Tier 1 every day. I would donate to upgrade Mushikegi and Manjonakko and get us out of Tier 1 only to see the system back to zero upgrades the next day.

So it is with that experience that I came to the #newfw channel.

The Rebuttal

Sharing my experience of farmers has been… complicated. I shared my concerns about their prevalence:

  1. They commit nothing and yet manage to make money.
  2. They frustrate and waste the time of a playstyle that is actually healthy for the game (both in press and player enjoyment), Hunting.
  3. They have an influence on the warzone despite how little they commit (making it harder to maintain Tiers).
  4. They encourage a risk-averse approach to the warzone (telling newbies to fit Warp Core Stabilizers).
  5. They kill the content in the warzone by helping the winners win more while keeping down the challengers.

Somehow some people failed to see those as problems. When they were not feigning ignorance and downright ignoring it, I got answers like this:

  1. There will always be farmers, you can’t stop it.
  2. Just fit 2 scrams and some combat probes! Easy!
  3. We still have the bloodiest space around! No worries!
  4. You just want to force everyone to fight!
  5. Someone please think of the new players!!

Even though they at least didn’t try to just play blind and ignore the problem, those answers were still all fundamentally flawed.

Before addressing those points they all stem from the false impression that plex farming only happens on the defensive side. The money actually is in o-plexing, and that money can be easily farmed with drone boats. So plex farming can be done in a way that affects the opposing side.

Anyway, first off addressing plex farmers will not prevent newbies from making money in the warzone (unless you need billions like some people), what it would ask of them is to group more often to increase their survival odds or isk/hour. Gods forbid we ask people to group up in a MMO right?! Same thing for farmers, it would ask a very simple choice from them, ensure their high isk/hour and fight for their plexes, or flee and have their profits reduced.

They would still be free to flee at the first sight of an enemy, that’s the important thing. But if they want their increased payouts they would have to fight when someone contest their claim to be rewarded. Instead of now, where the only gaming decision is to flee and come back.

So in a way what I want to do is introduce an actual gaming decision. That fabled risk/reward thing people talk about. And it puts PvP back into the equation again when it comes to making money in the warzone, PvP is what makes the space thrives and yet everyday we have to see people thinking the best FW fit is a stabbed frigate…

Also, by far their most annoying and dishonest point, the over-reliance on the Nirvana Fallacy made it even harder to find any legitimacy to those defending farmers.

“You cannot not have farmers”.

This is the point I’ve had to deal with the most. If the best argument against something is that it is not a perfect solution, it is as absurd as saying “road prevention is useless, you will never not have accidents”. It is both intellectually lazy, and morally dangerous.

And if the justification of all of that is that the Caldari-Gallente space is still doing good despite all those, well this is as weak as a justification as the previous ones. EVE as a game will only progress if all of its parts also progress and manage to satisfy more and more people in an healthy way.

Oh and against the “just fit 2 scrams thing”, those that had to counter a Trollceptors know that fighting a cancer mechanic with another cancer mechanic is an exercise in futility. This is also a classic case of a band-aid solution, the motivation that makes someone fit 4 stabs is not because he doesn’t want to be pointed, it’s because he doesn’t want to engage in PvP in the first place. That motivation can also be seen with Trollceptors and over-sized Entosis Cruisers. To top all of that it was very hard to give any credibility to those trying to defend the farmers when they themselves admitted to using AFK-alts to farm.

When the rest of the Caldari leadership was still active in the channel it was a lot easier to push all those points. But after a while I was the only Caldari left in the channel, which had the disadvantage of making me the figurehead when it came to discussing farmers. This also made me the perfect target to attack the idea of curbing farmers.

Anyway…

Plexes are a great conflict driver, probably one of the best in the game right now. Unfortunately this is not much of a compliment when you have a game that is full of conflict drivers that have been all gamed to the point of not only barely generating any conflicts but also becoming instruments of trolling instead of fighting.

The Encounter Surveillance System? “Lol. I will just have an alt nearby.” Moons and Null-sec? Once in a blue… moon they generate the greatest fights the game has seen, rest of the time they just shit insane amount of passive income in the economy and do nothing. War-decs? Abused mostly to farm the weak and inexperienced. Gatecamps? They will kill you all day, but as soon as any reasonable opposition comes nearby they can just dock up at will.

This game is full of great PvP potential that is all but wasted by, at the same, favoring risk-averse and trolling behavior.

The way the whole Entosis experiment turned out is symptomatic of that problem. How what is destined to be a generator of conflict and content ends up as yet another way to ruin both the game and someone else’s time. And another incarnation of that is how Plexes as a conflict driver is being subverted into yet another way to troll people and avoid all the fights.

Very early when I started being active in #newfw I proposed solutions to handle that problem in FW space. Outside of revealing the problem with farmers, I have also proposed mechanics that would help promote fighting, incite fights, and make Factional Warfare even more of a place for small-scale content and non-stop PvP.

My first proposal was A Deployable for FW plexes that would help introduce quick access to PvP and securities against blobs. I’m especially fond of this one as it would give options to those on a tight schedule, they would either massively profit for having the courage to put their necks out there, or get a fair-ish fight quickly (gotta get ready for that Garmur  though).

Another proposal I did was the Factional Surveyor. And this one is special because it actually will be implemented in spirit through the coming FW Patrols in the Day 4 CSM Minutes. The goal of this proposal was to add one more activity for people roaming the warzone that would also serve as another conflict driver between militias. I still wonder if CCP will actually make sure those are worth committing to and hunting, and not just annoyances you have to deal with.

Finally, I tried addressing one of the missing links in the FW system in the form of a proper reward for winning out the warzone and that without killing the content by dealing a new hand to the losing side (thinking also about some bonuses to help out the losers into the grinder) with the The Retaking Mechanic.

Whether or not those proposals are shit or not, what matters is that each try to address glaring lacks in the current FW system. Fast content for a space that is suited for it. What I hope to address next is the other missing link, a system that would help the underdog put up more of a fight. As you confine them to less and less systems, the losing side would have more incentives for players to fight back and make it harder to get those few last systems before full warzone control. But of course with the Retaking you would actually be greatly rewarded if you actually manage to get those last systems.

There has been a lot of very good proposals in the #newfw document, many that I have supported because I saw the potential they had to better the warzone like:

  • Proposal: Tier progression will slowly increase until it hits the warzone control cap + Proposal: Tier affects LP stores instead of LP payout
  • Proposal: Plex timer rollback

Either by smoothing out the Tier progression to prevent the warzone being gamed like in the Minmatar/Amarr warzone or the plex timer rollback to ask for commitment and frees up time for the Hunters to go around and create content. Each one has the potential to help make FW even more vibrant.

As you can see, I have not just been using Slack to rail against farmers without a second thought. I have proposed solutions, it is unfortunate that the only people that saw them were those who saw no problems to solve.

Still I have a vision for FW, as a space where, for example, the few people who stream the game can easily find content for their viewers without having to deal with 20 or more jumps or yet another farmer warping away in front of them. A space with an endless battle where each side tries its very best to beat the other one without fear of killing their content, and that in a manner that can benefit the game, either through driven system sieges, or “constent” fights at the little-guy scale. A space that tries to teach the prime lesson of EVE, that losing is an opportunity to rise up and get back for more. And that despite all the spaces around it deviating more and more from this important lesson and only allowing for the fats to get fatter.

And with the incoming work on small-scale conflict, new ships, balance changes, and modules coming. The new T2 Destroyers that will allow for more spatial plays and counterplays, the Navy ECM frigates that will allow for ECM that is healthier for small-scale combat thanks to their hybrid nature, and the coming T2 Logistics Frigates that will allow for more powerful fleet doctrines at the Small size. If we make it even easier to find targets, if we keep incentivizing people to open themselves to conflict, we will be at the dawn of something that will be unique in the gaming space. A ruthless, open-world with gangs roaming all-around, rushing from locations to locations to further stoke the flames of the greater war. Pirates navigating the waters to avoid the bigger fish and find its target, unaware that he himself might be the prey.

For those who search for a game where you can always learn, where you thrive from conflict, this will be heaven!

About Dantelion Shinoni

Member of the [IBLOB] SQUIDS. corporation. Discovering EVE through Faction Warfare. Should be flying Caldari boats but instead has a soft spot for the Golden Horde hulls.

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94 comments

  1. “First off, I will start by saying I haven’t been able to login into EVE in a while.” because you’ve been too busy on your gallente main account.

    • Dantelion Shinoni

      Oh! You are That Guy who has been trying to push your story about me being a Gallente main. Like I needed more examples of people spouting non-sense without an ounce of evidences.
      I mean, I’m sure you have the chat logs, ISKs trails to prove it right?

      It couldn’t be that you are just talking out of your ass. No….

  2. I think you should probably log in, to stop spreading inaccurate ‘rumours’ like the one saying Stay Frosty is gate camping Isho.

    • Dantelion Shinoni

      I spent months seeing the occasional Stay Frosty navigate from Uuna/Ishomilken to Caldari space. I also spent months trying to avoid them on my hauler. They do not gatecamp indeed, so that one is my mistake, but I know the effect them living in that part of Caldari space has on our militia. I know what I’m talking about.

      If pirates being active in your route is not deterrent enough, well I don’t know what to say.

      • Putting real pirate corp like Stay Frosty into ‘gate camping basket’ with Sons and others, is just bad info gathering.
        Frosties hate gate camping as much as any real PvPer.
        Having said that, hunting haulers is obviously part of the hunting game, but this has nothing to do with crappy gate camping…

        • 1) What’s wrong with gate camping as a piracy tactic?
          2) I’ve seen Stay Frosty camp gates.
          3) I’ve even seen them camp the Isho gate

          Are they cowardly pirates that do nothing but camp gates? Absolutely not.

          Do they sometimes get lazy and go “eh let’s just gatecamp here”? Yes.

      • Ive been using the uuna area to farm with 4 oplexing ats that i supervise with my main. Ive been up there off and on for 4 months and have made a LOT of LP so far, so thanks. In this time, i have never seen Usi camped even once. I do use Usi ro repair and my alt corp office. Literally, not one camp.

        Uuna used to be camped by the Bastards on occasion, but that was quite rare.

  3. Nice write up. I’m a bit surprised that you’re the only one in that slack channel who is against farmers. Thought on the Gallente side (and even among the pirates) are some people hating theses stabbed frigates.

    I’m not in FW. But from an RP side, if I were in charge of any of the militia organizations I would introduce the cowards flag. Those men in my militia that flee from battle don’t deserve my payment. Flee a plex once, -10% LP payout for say 24h; Flee 4 times and down to -80%; If you are not willing to fight for my cause I don’t pay you.
    Maybe even a “stand your ground” bonus, like killed by overwhelming forces (3 vs 1) +20% LP for next 6h. Add a “shining hour” bonus of 40% LP payout (2h) if you kill all the attackers in scenario that would lead to “stand your ground” if you had lost, like defeating 4 enemies in one plex.

    CCP introduced the jump fatigue timers, so the basics to have character based effects active is already there. And it would underline the military nature of FW. Fight for what you began and don’t retreat. You are immortal after all, don’t fear death.

    • We are supposed to be immortal and insanely rich beings, but the guys behind the character are very much mortal and stingy. Thus you would see even the most rich alliance leader rage at the loss of a few hundred millions ISKs.

      I think EVE could use some more ways to make people scoff off the stinginess. Motivate people into trading ISKs for fun more, instead of just mindlessly amassing it. There are tons of ways to do, whether it is in FW, Null, or High-sec, the only problem is the motivation to do it.

      Although CCP did show some awareness of the concept of uncommitted attackers. Several of their last and coming updates boast the term, so at least they know that uncommitted attackers affect some of the mechanics of their game.

    • The Gallente appear to make extensive use of multi-boxed plexing alts to d-plex, push tier, and farm LP. The Caldari don’t seem to do this, at least not to nearly the same extent — fewer tryhard no-lifers, more naive noobs.

      Fairly common for me to find an older GalMil character d-plexing a large in a T1, half-fit Tristan, kill and pod that frog and have him be right back there in three or four minutes, then kill and pod him again, repeat 2-3 times. Frequently seems like a bot.

      • You see the same type of activity on both sides. If you are in gal systems you will see more gal deplexing alts for a reason. If you are in Caldari systems the reverse is true.

        – Than

        • Really not true. Do an unbiased review and you will find that there is a Gal deplexing alt engine that just does not exist on the Caldari side. Sure, there may be a few, but it is a few players who do it with little to no coordination.

    • Chaninam be careful bro. This piece is pretty biased toward Dantelion’s viewpoint. This article isn’t exactly an unbiased opinion of how conversations about farmers have gone anywhere.

      • Yeah, I’m sure you are not biased yourself when you say that.

        I mean, we could talk about your part in those conversations too.

        • I’m not claiming to be unbiased, friend. I also never claimed that I don’t disagree with how far you go in your hatred of dudes not fighting you. I’m also not posting articles painting everyone who disagrees with me as a fool or bad either.

          • Dantelion Shinoni

            > I’m also not posting articles painting everyone who disagrees with me as a fool or bad either

            You should do it!

            Be better than me and manage to respectfully show everyone who disagree with you the errors of their ways. Unlike what you are tried to paint me as, I welcome a proper discussion with ideas and thinking, so I would only respect you for that.

            Or point you to your mistakes if you fail to make a proper point.

  4. It’s funny that when Caldari have some guy that is not getting tired of Galente arrogance then Gals gets such butt hurt and do “Operation Dantelion”. Go on Dante! Be proud and don’t stand down to these fools.
    Farmers are insane problem, but not for gals. Since huge majority are on their side thanks to stable LP/ISK ratio, so why changing it right? 😀
    It’s same story as with lvl4 missions. Gals cry because their missions cannot be done in SB as other factions can. WAKE UP guys, you CAN. Just get head out of your arses, fit properly and do it. Yes it’s possible and we will make YouTube video how to do it, day before CCP will update game and removes them. Just to prove Galente stupidity!

  5. Wow….. is this an instance where carebear types can tell the PVP guy to HTFU?

  6. Something else to note here is that, formerly, farming actually drove the cyclical tier changes, which CCP interrupted with the rat toughening and re-spawning. This made it unviable to semi-AFK farm o-plexing, which dramatically reduced farming income and drove a critical mass of players out of it. In the past, LP farmers would farm one faction until that LP went down in value, then would switch to another faction. As they rotated around, each faction would spend some time in high tier. Since the o-plexing changes, the war zones have been essentially static, because there is no longer a critical mass of farmers, who have no actual loyalty to any faction, to move from faction to faction and impact war zone control.

    • Yup. Changes to the way plexes work (cloak ban within 30km of button, rat respawn, and rat tank) had a major positive impact on the degree to which plex farmers could impact the warzone.

      People used to scream bloody murder because plexing alts actually controlled the warzone to a very large degree. That is no longer the case. And while there are incremental things that can be done to hinder plex farmers and further improve the degree to which pilots willing to engage in glorious combat control the warzone, you don’t need to tip over the apple cart.

      Changing rat aggression in plexes to remove offensive oplexing, getting rid of cross plexing with 4 way war, etc.

      The larges issue with farming in FW has nothing to do with plexes and everything to do with missions, and they are already at work addressing that.

      – Than

      • “Changing rat aggression in plexes to remove offensive oplexing”

        should have been “to removing afk offensive oplexing with drone boats.”

        – Than

      • Trying to prevent proper anti-farming measures to happen by luring and diverting people to 4-way war, useless rat aggression, or appealing to the middle is kinda low,

        but totally expected of you when we consider how much you are attached to those farmers mechanics.

        The largest issues of FW is that its conflict drivers has parasitic or lacking elements, either it is with the pve nature of incomes and plexing, or the lack of incentives to win out the warzones or resist as the challenger.

        That you are incapable of seeing that is also expected though.

        • “The largest issues of FW is that its conflict drivers has parasitic or lacking elements, either it is with the pve nature of incomes and plexing, or the lack of incentives to win out the warzones or resist as the challenger.”

          It is an eternal war. One in which I already coordinated taking the entire warzone, and didn’t get a medal. Those that know how to take the warzone, and are willing to do it, generally won’t because it requires you to kill off large swaths of the pvp ecosystem (no more war targets living near you).

          You don’t know what you are talking about, you refuse to listen to others, and you blatantly disregard any input that doesn’t match up with your worldview.

          You said you were tired of fighting farmers and chasing stabbed plexers so people tried to help you out by telling you to go to systems where there are active pvpers, not living in the backwaters.

          If you want to live in the backwaters hunting stabbed plexers get some combat probes and some of the new navy maulus hulls (gal consipiracy OP faction ship) – no more stabbed farmer problems.

          – Than

          • Hm “You don’t know what you are talking about, you refuse to listen to others, and you blatantly disregard any input that doesn’t match up with your worldview.”
            Talking about yourself?

          • Thanatos Marathon

            Confirmed, along with an obligatory quote.

            “You know nothing Jon Snow”

          • Dantelion Shinoni

            At this point I literally think you have brain damage, Thanatos.

            That article was to point out how I countered every and each of those points you spent months spamming.

            Manjo is not backwater, it’s cose to Caldari’s heart, that’s like the first thing covered in the article.

            Your cancer mechanics to hunt down stabbed farmers don’t work else everyone would be doing it. They don’t.

            I talked about the whole killing of the ecosystem and how I want to address that soon.

            If you can’t understand what you read or you just don’t have the mental capabilities to make sense of what I say, it’s not my fault.

            You can’t say I don’t listen to you (or the people spouting that nonsense), when you can’t even understand when I tried to explain something to you.

          • Thanatos Marathon

            “Manjo is not backwater, it’s cose to Caldari’s heart, that’s like the first thing covered in the article.”

            rofl

      • “That is no longer the case. ” Unfortunately, not true. Gallente regularly mobilize alts to d-plex key systems when they get 50-60% contested.

        What is needed is that warping off with opposing militia in capture radius resets plex timer (and possibly combat victory in capture radius captures the plex). Warp-off timer reset would dramatically reduce d-plex farming.

        • That is more or less what is dante proposing, timer rollback should be there. That is why galente SCREAM and KICK so much. They would have to actually deplex with their pvp toons and not have fun in bloby fleet.
          CCP should make it clear, FW is PvP environment, if you cannot hold plex, then you should lose your progress.

          • Actually, the basis for the argument against timer rollbacks is due to the value of each plexers time, as well as the impact it has on system sieges.

          • Dantelion Shinoni

            Which have all been taken into account and addressed.

            The case is clear here. timer rollbacks (or at least their design) clearly favor the time of those who commit, it’s part of the mechanic. Where the plexer has the advantage of range dictation/preparation, the attacker has the advantage of increased rewards if he manage to win out the encounter.

            For system sieges we talked about introducing grace periods that would allow for people to leave plexes and help each other. We also proposed reducing the time it takes to oplex to compensate for the defensive advantage.

            It’s not a perfect solution but we have damn well tied to make it so.

    • This is more prevalent >nownow<, after those nerfs you talked about, you don't have the same flipping because the volumes of LPs are a lot lower, especially when compared to the LPs Missions pour out.

      BUT, you still have population of people who engage and encourage risk-averse behaviors. And that has effects on the small-scale unlike in Amarr-Minmatar, reducing the odds of finding content and still affecting the losing side Tier-wise.

      The mass is no longer critical but they still have effects, more and more people engage into FW in Cal-Gal thinking a 4-stabs ships is the fit to prosper in FW.

      • That just is not true. There are fewer cloaky/stabbed farmers active now than there used to be by a fairly large number. But as you have proven before, it doesn’t matter how many stats and facts we show you, you just ignore them.

        – Than

        • What stats and facts?? Where???

          On my side I have countless records of people telling people in or interested in FW to fit Stabs and just plex!

          I have all the people I have seen in FW corps recruiting newbies on the basis that they would be able to plex their account by farming.

          I have all the time I have seen warp away from me after I pointed them. Those occurrences did not diminish at all!

          Where are your stats that all those things don’t actually exist? I would gladly see them!

        • Not sure three killboard thinks showing a few stabbed squids amounts to proof that frogs don’t bot d-plexing.

          • Thanatos Marathon

            You won’t ever hear me say Gallente don’t have plexing alts. Quite a few of us do (including myself).

          • I definitely have a deplexing alt. They’re free, and if you don’t have one you’re honestly lazy or incompetent.

            That said, I don’t bot, and I don’t know anyone in Gal who does (not that I know everyone in Gal). It’s just not worth the effort to actually pay attention to other than once every twenty minutes for a new plex.

            It’s very simple: enemy plexes system in my off time but lacks the will to actually maintain push. While they are gone, my alt deplexes. All it takes to stop my alt is a single combat toon continuing to attack the system. I don’t do it for isk; the isk is shit.

            What you’re really complaining about is unwillingness to put in the hours needed to flip a system.

  7. An article exploring how farmers can impact the WZ, how they used to impact it and how they currently impact it would be interesting.

    This article really seems like you’re just trying to fire back at at dudes and make yourself look good at the expense of everyone else associated with any of the conversations on the topic of farmers and I feel like that is a little dishonest bro. I had truly and honestly hoped you’d finally taken the high ground in these stupid oped pieces FW.com has been putting out.

    They were funny at first. Now this is just getting sad.

    BTW, everyone should join Operation Meatshield. We kill farmers, pies and frogs. We don’t care who it is or where they are, we’ll try to find them and kill them!

    • “I expected you to let the Gallente say everything they wanted about you!”

      If that’s what you call taking the high ground, well I invite you to take it yourself.

      By the way, this is not a OPed piece in case you haven’t noticed.

      • Right. This isn’t an OPed piece. This is you trying to push back against a dude who made himself look stupid by ragging on you in two articles that literally had nothing to say besides “lol Dantelion is bad”. If you don’t see how having produced this sperg makes you look even worse then I can’t help you bud.

        Like I said, an article exploring how farmer can, have, do and will impact WZ control would be an interesting topic to examine. What you’ve produced here is little more than salt for everyone to laugh at.

        I’m sorry bro.

        • You cannot say that some article is biased. No matter what you think, farmer problem is serious and has to be deal with.
          For example, I had to force 4 stabed farmers from system few minutes back and I’m not talking about afk stabed tristans. They had Worm, Ishkur, DD and Comet.
          Time of stabed tristans is mostly gone, now everyone plays card of scary ship.

    • I want to see topic where Moglarr isn’t representing himself as Galente pet. All you do is repeating gal words man. Just be silent and let this to more informed people.

      • Moglarr is literally the only squid I have ever seen that can express himself with common sense and not rhetoric. He also uses his real character name to post unlike you and the other ‘vet’. So he has the fucking ballz to stand by his statements and not disassociate himself from them.

    • Oh and YEA Everyone join Meat Shield, corp full of spies and Caldari traitors 😀

  8. So for someone like Dantelion, the issue really is FW is completely broken and needs to be fixed in ways. But in ways that would apply to FW only or break EVE everywhere. It’s a concern for a small minority of number of players, as he noted for his vision for streamers. Its cherry picking examples to support his cause while ignoring where FW is vibrant and healthy. This has been an issue with him in #newFW, and I see it has continued here.

    The biggest point of concern is the idea that we need to inject “actual gaming decisions” into FW. Let’s be very clear in what this really means: It is outright dismissing valid player choices that result in behavior the author doesn’t like as not an “actual gaming decision”. It is the case of simply calling out “This is bad and needs to be stopped” with out honestly considering or understand why a player chooses to act in a particular way. And as a result, it results in a malformed understanding of the dynamics in play and results in a vision for something that is not EVE.

    Simply put, It’s not a viable option to change the game for your needs because you’re not adept enough to engage in content honestly and wholeheartedly.

    • Dantelion Shinoni

      Wow, the “EVE is a sandbox, so don’t add anything to it” defense, how unexpected…

      Another case of trying to prove me wrong at all costs, even if it means using the slippery slope argument of me breaking the ENTIRE game, show me ONE way the mechanics and points I defend would be bad for the game, instead of just spouting nonsense.

      Also it’s not just for “someone like me”, I know how you and the people defending the farmers are obsessed with my person, but what I have done here is show how FW is objectively flawed and that for everyone.

      And to rebuke your point, It’s not that I do not like the gaming decisions of farmers, it’s that they have 0, zero, I repeat, ZERO gaming decisions in their behavior. They just warp away, it’s the proper way to increase their isk/hour. You go ahead and show the deep gameplay farmers exhibit!
      In case you are too dense to realize it, gaming decisions are important for a *game*, it’s what makes it a game, decisions that made you lose or win. Else botting would be legitimate.

      Also I notice you guys just can’t read, the “vibrant and healthy” part is addressed in the article.

      What people like you don’t realize is that a game is engineered, *even a sandbox*. EVE is engineered to power a cycle of creation of destruction, and to reach that goal mechanics exist to prevent some behaviors that are detrimental to that goal. Even if FW is such mechanic, a forced artificial war, CREATED BY THE DEVS, but that’s still a sandbox elements because we are free to create stories inside it.

      All I want is that we keep tweaking the system to engineer more stories of destruction, conflict, and warfare, instead of stories of constant running away, hoarding, and afking-botting.

  9. It would be a lot easier to take you seriously on the farmer issue if you had any meaningful experience in faction warfare, rather than having a KB that looks like a half-abandoned farming alt.

  10. This discussion could be called, “Welcome to Thanatos sperg room” with very simple goal. Making fun of article author so his message is lost in flood of comments. Same story as with all Caldari proposals in history of FW!

    • Not really. I’ve enjoyed talking to a wide variety of cal mil over the years. And quite a few of them have had very good ideas, as well as being constructive people to talk to.

  11. The fact that even in this recent stint at tier 3, while cal mil have been in tier 2 (and sometimes 1), cal mil has been matching and even beating gal mil in VP rates tells you everything you need to know about which side has more plex farmers.

    • Dantelion Shinoni

      I have been part of that push that made you guys lose Tier 3 some weeks ago. It is was not people farming, it was people plexing and fighting at the micro-scale like mad to help Caldari come back, while you guys were busy with the larger part of the war.

      Plus, if Caldari profited from farmers mechanics, I would argue for those farmers mechanics to be removed. I’m not here to discuss a better FW for only Caldari, but a better FW for *everyone*.

  12. Dantelion Shinoni

    I welcome the salt this article generated!

    I also welcome their desperate attempts to prove me wrong at all costs. Some say you can never truly convince another human, the confirmation bias will always be at out any logical point you put forth.

    Oh well, won’t stop me from trying. On to the next reply and article!

  13. Sigh. Dantelion, the problem has never been with the goal of what you want to achieve but rather with the proposed mechanics you have put forward to achieve those goals and the fact that you disregard input from those that have been around longer to give you the history of how similar things in the past have played out.

    • Dantelion Shinoni

      I have not disregarded input, the input you talk about is right here listed in this article.

      What I have done is dismantle and prove wrong each of those inputs.

      Where the problem happened is that instead of admitting they were wrong and learning from it, pride got in the way and led to the shitshow that happened in #newfw and outside of it. All the mechanics I proposed and defended addressed the concerns that had been presented to it.

      Seriously, you can’t have a discussion between two parties when one of them is adamant about never changing its position, ever.

      Also, being around longer reduces the probability of someone saying something inaccurate, it does *not* make it zero.

      • If so many people are telling you that you are wrong, might you consider that your pride and ignorance could be the problem?

        Of course it isnt, us evil gallente are part of a huge conspiracy to keep faction war broken any any cal mil dude that disagrees with you is simply a gallente alt.

        Yeah, thats it. Right?

      • Your ideas are not sound and you don’t think of the consequences and how they can be gamed.

        “A Deployable for FW plexes” have the goal of providing less blobby fights. While this is a noble goal, the idea is flawed and can be used to win plexes (ie take 5 worms into a novice, set up this structure, then “I WIN”). The rest of the fleet can concentrate on other size plexes. Fights will be more about “who can warp to the plex first and deploy one of these things” rather than about the fight itself.

        “Factional Surveyor” is not a horrible idea and CCP is sort of doing it anyway. It’s pure PVE though, so it really isn’t that interesting to me.

        “Proposal: Empire Navy Retaking ” is another idea with a sound goal but bad implementation. How do you prevent the NPC’s from “retaking” the winning sides home system (ie how does it know which systems are “fair” to give back and which aren’t)? If the penalty’s outweigh the benefit, then the winning side will always stop just short of triggering the effect. If the benefit’s outweigh the penalty’s, then these will be triggered in order to be farmed.

        You goals about “reducing farmers” is noble as well, but the devil is in the details. Quite simply, there is no easy and straightforward way to go about it. What everybody is saying is “It used to be WAY worse, and let’s not be hasty and suggest something without clearly thinking it through. We don’t want CCP to mess up what we have right now.”

        • Dantelion Shinoni

          I can tell your goal is to be constructive :), as I said in the articles my ideas might very likely be shit but at least I proposed solutions through them.

          But hey, let’s play this game.

          First off, the goal of the Factional Deployable and the mechanics I defend *is NOT to solve ship imbalances*. Easy enough to understand?
          If I wanted to solve the Worm, or some other OP ship around, problem I would propose solutions about those. Those are to incite fights in FW and reward commitment.
          Second, I added a 1 per system limitation to the Factional Deployable specifically to limit the impact it would have on systems sieges. But even if the enemy manage to “steal” the plex first, guess what? You have ample time to designate as many “champions” as you want among yourselves and take the plex, yep the guys in the plex are actually at a disadvantage there as they will have to fight multiple waves of your best hand-picked pilots.

          If after that you can’t take the plex, you simply don’t deserve it.

          “Factional Surveyor is not a horrible idea”, wow you mean I can actually have good ideas sometimes??… Surprising!

          Finally, for the Empire Navy Retaking. Seriously, you are talking like I program this game and somehow could give you the exact code showing how it would act. This is a proposal, if it ever get implemented details will have to be worked out. Of course it would need some securities, one of such I thought about was starting from the systems close to Empire high-sec. If you decided to base yourself in one of those systems despite the mechanic, you only have yourself to blame.

          Those ideas can work, that you want them not to is doesn’t make them bad.

          Those who are content that it’s not as worse as it used to be or those who instead are looking ahead to how much better it could get…
          Whose side could make the game benefit more, I wonder.

          • Thanatos Marathon

            It isn’t that people don’t want your ideas to not work, it is that they won’t work.

            For example, the idea of just feeding your “best” pilots into a novice plex vs 5 worms, while also contending with instalockers outside of the plex, means your “best” pilots will always be reshipping due to getting blown up in situations they stand zero chance of winning. No FC in their right mind will commit their “best” pilots to that.

          • Dantelion Shinoni

            “Hell no, I’m not sending the guys who would better guarantee I take this plex back!!”

            You are really not thinking those ones through, are you?

            I mean, is it really that hard for you to see that YOU can also fight to control the access to the plex? Or that you could bring some Worms too? Or that if you do some you can send 15-20 people over time before they can cap the plex?

            You tell me those ideas don’t work and you proceed to give a half-assed points (the sames as Thanatos btw).

            Also props on ignoring that the feature is not designed to solve ship imbalances, AGAIN!

          • Dantelion Shinoni

            Oops it was not Andre.
            Sorry for the animosity but it gets really tired having to repeat things again and again.

            I thought it was Thanatos telling you to parrot the same exact points I’ve spent days trying to make him understand how they were addressed.

  14. I personally like your ideas, while rough around the edges they are at the least ideas and display an awareness of the problems in the WZ.

    Compared to “just ignore (the problem) the backwater systems” you’re doing well.

  15. thanatos, we can play KB posting game to 😀 https://zkillboard.com/kill/49771612/

    • Thanatos Marathon

      Aye, but I’m not the one saying there is a giant deplexing alt farming conspiracy on the other side, and no one on our side deplexes with alts at all.

  16. Not one person will disagree that ‘farmers’ in FW are bad for many of the reasons you listed. However, your ideas are really not very good at fixing the issues you identified. Then there is your fourth idea, inside this wall of comments about timer resets. By your own actions, you (and your militia) would loose plexes all the time. I have many times seen you running around in a group only going after the shit you can cleanly gank and ignoring or running away from a ‘fair sided’ fight. Furthermore, the timer reset idea, while interesting at first, after closer scrutiny as fairly broken in a game of rock paper scissors, and solo vs gang that is Eve.

    Furthermore, you blame and attack the Gallente for using farmers, when the Caldari war machine has probably about the same ratio of farmers to PvPers. And you have a ton of them on your side, that will run from any engagement. Anyone can catch these stabbed dudes without wasting a bunch of time as long as you fit for it, just like anything else. I would totes back you if one of your proposed solutions involved preventing a stabbed ship from running a plex timer, at least unfit ships can be killed without extra scrams. You see I can engage in dialogue.

    I would totally engage you in a discussion about all these things too. But from what I hear, it would be a waste of time. You dont listen to reasons why ideas are bad, just blindly assume that you have all the answers. News Flash. You dont have all the answers. But that is not the same thing as saying all your ideas are completely bad. However, as near as I can tell from reading and reskimming your article, you only have 3 solutions. The first two make absolutely no sense in what they are supposed to fix or how they are supposed to fix things. The third one is interesting, but needs work. I would have to think on it personally to commit to the idea or comment on tweaks. In total your 3 solutions do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to solve any of the issues that you identified.

    TLDR. The problems are known. Your ideas either dont make sense or are incomplete. You dont listen to advice or opinions and you have not solved your named issues.

    • What about posting ideas you think might get better instead of just saying, these are bad. Communicate people. This comment section has best guys in FW, so stop fighting and find solution.

      • I already did post my solution to the problem of stabbed farmers right above, which getting rid of stabbed farmers is what this article seems to be about. Don’t allow stabbed ships to run timers, just like noob ships cant. This will not stop farmers, I cannot see a way that anything possibly could, but at least semi afk farmers would die when they got caught by pvp fit ships. Its an imperfect start.

        • We are telling this CCP for ages, but some guys always say “It’s sandbox, you cannot limit players” and CCP always said same thing.

      • The problem with most of us that truly understand the problem is that we don’t have a good solution. If we had a 100% solution, it would be preached all over the place. Somewhat decent ideas out there include:

        1)Add a DPS penalty to warp core stabs in addition to the locking penalty. This will still let players fit them, but without enough DPS to break the NPC tank. This is better (ie sandboxy) than flat out ban on warp stabs. Sometimes I (as a PVPer) just want to mess with people (ie give them a gf when I warp out stabbed) and it is valid gameplay.

        2)Timer rollback to neutral (ie timer will count down to neutral as if you were there and meeting the capture requirements even if you leave). Will stop automatic countdown if opposing side shows up. Again, debatable whether this is still needed after NPC tank changes.

        3)Fix nullsec bottom->up income so maybe many of the nullsec alt farmers will just leave. In general, this fix is more along the lines of fixing risk/reward elswhere in the game such that people can earn suffient isk in THEIR desired gameplay area without rolling a (FW, HS mission, Incursion, etc) alt to fund their gameplay. Let people earn “enough” isk to get by in their desired playstyle (ie like FW) and move the game away from corp/alliance SRP funding.

        4)Fix mission balances. Caldari rats hard, enough said. Other 3 factions should be hard like Gallente missions, not Gallente be easier. This is one of the main reasons there are less farming focused players in Gal Mil.

        5)Decouple mission LP from tier levels

        6)Alter tier/LP payout levels (ie tweak income) but this is a hard one as too high will encourage more farmers and too low will hurt pvp ecosystem.

        6)Fix clearly OP ships in certain plexes (ie worm, garmur, T3D)

        I’m not putting forward any of the big radical changes. Almost all of these are bad and invented by people who do not have a hacker/economist mindset. They don’t think about how their system can be gamed and used in unintended ways. For these, we should just talk about what we want to see and leave the implementation up to the professional game designers (not that CCP is really any better,ie Goon freighter explosions with market manipulated goods). This is where most of us can shoot holes in ideas, but not really propose any good ones ourselves.

        • “4)Fix mission balances. Caldari rats hard, enough said. Other 3 factions should be hard like Gallente missions, not Gallente be easier. This is one of the main reasons there are less farming focused players in Gal Mil.”

          Have to correct you, gal missions are hard as any other faction and can be done in SB. You just have to be intelligent (if gal can be) and fit properly.
          Not saying that all of them can be, each faction has some hard missions that cannot be done in SB, just pick proper one.

  17. “it is a system to encourage fighting and to make people know where they can go for content quickly”

    I’m sure that the people who have posted on this thread could pretty quickly come up with a list of 20 different suggestions for achieving the stated goal. Each and every one of them would have their merits, but also flaws. There are no perfect solutions.

    Its easy to get invested in a single “solution” especially if you have already spent considerable time working on the idea.

    But ultimately it doesnt matter how good any single idea is. It also needs to be feasible to implement, and as only CCP has any real insight into that.

  18. As far as I see it, the issue is not the possibility to engage in stabbed farming per se, but the fact that there’s no meaningful counter to it. After expelling that farmer, it takes you as long to run back the timer. Don’t get me started on multi-scram anti-farmer fits. They are a specialized counter that tends to fail miserably against anything else, and even if you manage to bag a farmer now and then, doing so took you as much time to reship as it will take him to go get another dirt cheap stabbed frigate. Which will still finish that plex he was doing.

    Instead of timer rollbacks as usually understood, I would suggest the following: If a faction has more than one minute of accumulated progress on a plex, it will take exactly one minute for the other faction to undo all of that progress and reset the plex. Instead of rolling the timer in the other direction as currently, a separate 1-minute reset timer would appear. The factional warriors who reset the plex get a payout proportional to the amount of progress they ruined for the enemy.

    The payout would be low enough so that a farmer with alts in both militias would not benefit in isk/h terms by almost-finishing a plex and then resetting it with the other alt, but high enough that if the enemy ran it to almost-done and you drove him out, you’d get more isk/h than by oplexing.

    In this way, stabbed farming would be a lower-risk, lower-reward activity, and flying anti-plexer combat patrols in your own space would be rewarding rather than a chore.

  19. your ideas don’t seem terrible and i would like seeing the results of some of them. i personally always thought they should have more incentives for large scale conflicts in faction warfare. i know this is about to sound crazy but just here me out. no sharing lp for capturing when capturing plexes. everyone in the plex when it is captured gets the full amount of lp. i know i know, this would reduce solo fights and stuff. maybe they could implement your idea of limiting the amount of people that can go in certain plexes. but my main idea comes from spending an entire weekend grinding plexes and fighting against the noble gals for control and gaining less lp than i would get if i just did 1 offensive plex by myself. it doesnt make sense for a farmer to help the war effort if they arent getting paid for it. with this system it would be easy to get more farmers to actually participate, especially since they are usually given ships for free by fcs.

    big fights are fun. that is the straight up truth. if there was no loss in lp from the amount of ships you have while bringing down a plex there would be more fleet roams looking for fights and grinding plexes to help the war effort. maybe fleets from both sides looking for plexes would find each other and fight. an incentive for conflict is always a good thing.

    a side note, they should obviously increase lp payouts for enemy ship kills. its a little ridiculous how little you get.

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