OpEd: Against the Warzone Tier System

[Editor’s Note: What follows is an opinion editorial piece by Myra Stark. The opinions expressed in this article are solely the author’s and do not necessarily represent the opinions of FW.com or its staff.]

The Warzone Tier system significantly disadvantages the weaker militia and needs to be removed from Faction Warfare (FW). The system has two significant and closely related impacts. It encourages LP farming and, as such, hands system and warzone (WZ) control over to players with zero interest in FW and minimal interest in PVP. It places the weaker militia or the militia trying to return to the WZ after being defeated at a significant disadvantage against an opponent capable of weaponizing the farmers.

Faction War is plagued by farmers and the warzone tier system encourages their participation in FW. Farmers see FW as a means to earn LP/ISK for other pursuits in New Eden. As such, they join the militia with the highest tier and secure the best payout for plexing. A tier three small pays 30,625 LP for 15 minutes effort. At 1000 ISK per LP, a low rate of return, this earns the farmer 30M ISK. In an hour, running smalls, the farmer earns 120M ISK. He can afford to lose a few 3M ISK plex ships and his profit margin is huge. The farmer is seldom interested in PVP; motivated solely by profit. His ship is fit to kill the rat quickly while offensively plexing (oplex) and often unfit for defensive plexing (dplex). He may or may not watch dscan. The expanded grid means he sees you earlier on his overview giving him more time to warp off. The Maulus Navy Issue is only effective at catching less attentive or ignorant farmers.

The LP paid to the farmer has no impact on the warzone but each plex he completes has a significant impact. Each FW plex changes the vulnerability of a system by 0.7% on average. Returning to our example, the oplexing farmer completing his 4 plexes adds 2.8% of vulnerability per hour to a system on average. Farmers are not solitary individuals. The warzone tier system brings them to FW space in droves. Two farmers operating in the same system can add 3-4% to system vulnerability per hour. This forces FW PVP pilots to actively counter the farmer in order to protect his home system and retain systems for his militia to hold its own tier. Chasing farming alts with zero interest in PVP is like chasing ghosts and not exciting game play. FW corps/alliances often organize counter-farming efforts using gate camps and aggressive patrolling to remove farmers from their systems but this doesn’t undo the damage done to system vulnerability. That requires FW pilots to spend hours dplexing with alts or mains of their own with little chance for PVP to break up the monotony.

Attacking the opposing militia’s systems has zero impact on the farmer. You’ll get PVP from the defenders. The opposing militia may even concentrate to defend the system. System assaults can generate hours of content for FW PVPers.  Meanwhile, the farmer sits in his plex undisturbed because FW PVP pilots are PVPing elsewhere. In addition, FW system defense is a 24/7 business.  Few FW alliances have adequate players in every time zone. This creates large windows of time when farmers can plex unchallenged, adding 3-4% to system vulnerability per hour. The FW PVPer logs in for his evening gaming session to discover the farmers have hung 10-15% of vulnerability on an important system, forcing him and his corp mates to spend 3-5 hours removing that vulnerability with little chance of PVP.  This is not engaging content and functions as disincentive to remain with the weaker militia in FW.

All four militias understand the impact of the farmer on FW, and the militia holding more than half of the systems in a WZ can weaponize the farmers to maintain its dominance. Using the Caldari-Gallente WZ as our model, there are 101 systems to fight over. The Caldari has held 30 systems, plus or minus 5, for the two years since the Gallente last conquered the WZ in August 2014. However, each time the Gallente Militia took themselves to tier three during those two years, the Caldari lost 6-8 systems within 5-7 days. Not a single Gallente system was above 40% vulnerability and every non-fortress Caldari system was above 70% vulnerability. The most recent example is occurring now.  Gallente PVPers and their alts have done very little plexing to produce these dramatic results. The farmers are plexing and the Gallente PVPers are flipping the iHubs. In the Caldari-Gallente WZ, to attain tier three a militia must hold 41 systems to produce the 244 victory points required. In the Amarr-Minmatar WZ, to attain tier three a militia must hold 29 systems to produce the 169 victory points required. The militia that controls the majority of systems in the WZ elevates its tier before its opponent conquers the required number of systems to match it. The majority of the farmers change militias to pursue profits gained with the higher tier. Consequently, the weaker militia loses systems, spends untold hours dplexing and emerges weaker than before. It requires minimal effort from the stronger militia’s PVPers. They only need to donate LP to the iHubs and can earn them running missions or plexing with their own farming alts. The majority of the farmers remain with the militia with the higher tier.

The Warzone Tier system is broken. It inherently encourages farming, thereby empowering players with no interest in FW and impairs the weaker militia’s attempts to rebuild. As long as the Warzone Tier system exists, the weaker militia is at a significant disadvantage as it tries to rebuild its numbers, hold its space, and challenge the stronger militia for additional systems in the WZ. Instead of the tier system, lock in plex value at tier two. Eve is a sandbox and no negative gameplay can ever be eliminated from the sandbox. However, locking in plex value provides fair profits for plexing and prevents the militias from weaponizing the farmers. It won’t end farming but over time offers the opportunity to even out the influence of farmers on warzone control by reducing the profit motive that drives farmer participation in FW. FW warzone control belongs in the hands of the players actively participating in FW. The Warzone Tier system needs to be eliminated for the benefit of everyone in the FW community.

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56 comments

  1. Faction war was long dead until the docking rights and LP rewards were introduced. The introduction of LP was a little bumpy but its in a good place now.

    You can blame farmers for the plight of cal mil all you want. But you would struggle to make a case that caldari militia would be in a better place than they are now if occupancy was dictated purely by PvP.

    Farmers are a resource. They can be managed to some degree. Timing is critical. For example, some in gal mil wanted to drop tiers while amar mil was in tier 4. If we dropped tier, our defensive farmers would retire, and the amarr farmers effect would be magnified possibly resulting in a pendulum swing against gallente that would require :effort: to rectify. Just like cal mils current situation will require effort to fix.

    Thankfully their efforts had minimal effect.

    On the other hand, gallente could comfortably drop tier now and take the farmers boot of cal mils neck. Perhaps in the future, if gal mil slips, these are concepts that you will work with in keeping gal mil down. I dont expect any mercy at that point, but please dont expect our pity in the mean time.

    • The ability for any militia to weaponize the farmers is the issue I am highlighting. CalMil last achieved it when TEST was here in Fall 13 to Winter 14. At that time, GalMil was pushed back to a small number of systems and TEST/CalMil was flipping 2-3 iHubs in an evening.

      Whether you use the current situation in the Cal-Gal Warzone or another, the issue is the Tier system encourages players not involved in FW to farm LP for other pursuits in New Eden and their impact on war zone control is bad for FW. I’m not speaking against the defensive alts we all employ to preserve the freedom of movement for our PVP mains. I am speaking against the mass of unaffiliated farmers, we both reference, that chase the highest tier for profit. The sheer number that emerge at T3 overwhelms the methods we all use to counter them. It happened to GalMil in Fall 13 it’s happened to CalMil in Jan 16 and now in June 16. The impact is the same.

      Removing the Tier system would not eliminate farming but it would limit the impact of the unaffiliated farmers that each of us has weaponized against the other at different times. It is not a cure all for the weaker militia. But it would take an important tool away from the dominate militia and enable the weaker militia to perhaps rebuild more effectively and quickly providing better content for both; removing the “farmers boot” as you say.

      • I like the tier system. It gives a strategic level to the occupancy war. Though perhaps there should only be 3 tiers that are the current tier 1,2&3. Tier 4&5 get a little bit silly and chill the market for far too long.

        I completely disagree that removing tiers will help the weaker side rebuild. What is stopping cal mil rebuild would seem to me would a lack of pull in the same direction and lack of content creators.

        Farmers are annoying, but while you hold a strong grasp on your home stations, what happens in vaaralen should be of little concern.

  2. Also, you have no idea who is responsible for what. In the past my 4 farming alts have had good impacts on oplexing systems and i have managed the defence of many systems with just my 6 accounts. You might call my alts farmers. But that is a meaningless definition driven essentially by your misconception that everyone has to play the way you do.

  3. As a farmer who likes to PVP, I think I can agree with the premise. I want to plex and have the same content as I did a couples months ago, but now I have zero incentive to do plexing. I want to gain a steady stream of isk while doing PVP, and I don’t really like the hard separation between the two activities.

  4. I totally agree, the LP System is broken, maybe not the Tier System in general because there has to be some sort of advantage of warzone control, but the LP system definetly is.
    @Crosi I’ll save you some time here, yes I’m a CalMil pilot so you can start over with your “You squids are always blaming someone else bullshit”
    Face it, the LP System has more than just economical impacts, it actually bores the weaker militias to death. In a Tier 1 vs Tier 3 Situation, the only way for the weaker militia to stick to the systems left is dplexing 23/7. You might call this “effort” but its plain boredom. This has been discussed multiple times and right now there is no easy solution to make actual PvP more important, compared to plexing, without making fraud easily possible.
    I think theres one major problem with farmers, its essentially risk free. ISK wise, at tier three you can loose at least ten to thirty ships for a novice plex.

    • o Weaker militia will always be at a disadvantage no matter what system is put into place.
      o Any activity in Eve (pvp for example) is only as important as you CHOOSE to make it.
      o Even at tier 1, my afk deplexing alt could lose 10 ships per novice plex. Not a problem.

  5. “Few FW alliances have adequate players in every time zone” – sounds like a personal problem

    “The FW PVPer logs in for his evening gaming session to discover the farmers have hung 10-15% of vulnerability on an important system, forcing him and his corp mates to spend 3-5 hours removing that vulnerability with little chance of PVP” – or he gets a completely free deplexing alt that can be run utterly afk and single-handedly undoes all of the farmer’s work in two systems while he’s pvping on his main

    I actually agree that the tier system in its current form could use substantial changes, but this article boils down to whining that the side putting forth less effort and organization should win.Recruit off timezones and learn to use deplexing alts.

    • 1. afk alts solve every problem in Eve.
      2. You can make enough isk to pvp nonstop even at Tier 1.

      Real issue is Gallente outnumber Caldari by quite a bit. No solution to that problem. Gallente FW corps are too invested in Gallente FW.

      • “2.You can make enough isk to pvp nonstop even at tier 1.”

        But that’s exact the point of the article! FW should not be an isk making exercise, it should be about PvP, Gallente vs Caldari, best pilots win.

        Surely, if your pilots are as good as you guys band about in local, then changing the LP system wont make a difference to the amount of systems you control anyhow?

        • If you drop payouts too much guys will go do other things rather than stay in FW low sec to make their isk. Fewer guys in FW low sec means less pvp and we all lose.

          Otherwise, I don’t care one way or the other about the tier levels. Lower perma-tier, more isk/lp. Higher perma-tier, less isk/lp.

          I’ll still be able to purchase and fly comets forever. Not a problem.

          • Disagree, a majority of the pilots I fly with are in FW for the fights, not the LP.

            I don’t see how reducing the amount of farmers will reduce PvP, if anything it would free up PvP pilots to do just that… PvP, instead of chasing farmers who don’t want to fight.

            Hell, I would take any PvP on a plex for the love of the fight, but these farmers that always run, they are the people driving Pvp’ers away from FW. Out of frustration more then anything.

          • @Corvus The point is that they make isk while pvp’ing. Without FW payouts they can have to leave the warzone and/or farm in pve ships – which ultimately means fewer fights.

            You can take any PvP on a plex for the love of the fight. Happens all the time. Quit chasing farmers, and go pvp instead. If you want to achieve FW objectives, then take fights in important systems.

        • Ever think maybe that half your militia are fair-weather friends? They’re behind you now, but will they be if you hit T1? Will they be if they can’t make shit-tons of isk a day?

          Maybe GalMil are in it for the money, but since there’s so little money to be made in CalMil right now, we’re in it for the fights.

          • Thanatos Marathon

            Quite a few of us have been around when we were in Tier 1 and think of those as the good days.

        • Plexing / LP Has nothing to do with why caldari will never beat the Gals. The reason is simple. Gallente stepped up about 2 years ago and got into the bigger and better ships.
          Most of caldari at this time refused to do so and got left behind with the times.

          Gallente are the stronger militia in every single way.
          Caldari has FAR to much drama among themselves someone steps up to lead and CEOs step all over them. Maybe caldari should unite properly then maybe there will be a difference

          A lot of caldari are just waiting for people from the gals to move on to bigger better things. YET why should they. They can take the warzone whenever they want. and have lots of content with bigger parties right here on there door stop.

    • Your first point true…but I was using that fact to highlight the out sized impact the farmers can have on the more active time zones for any militia. When both sides are at tier 2 the farmers exist but not in the same numbers and are countered by the methods we all use and I’ve already spoken to. The tier system is used to spike the numbers of farmers operating on one side in the warzone, weaponizing them. I see this as the issue.

      Finally, the majority of this year and last the Cal-Gal warzone was at tier 2 for both militias. From our point of view, PVP was more plentiful, distribution of vulnerable systems was much more even and created opportunities for good system & iHub battles. The weaponization of farmers destroys these conditions. The tier system is a flawed game mechanic; we’ve all learned to use to the detriment of the war zone.

      Your second point…every one employs this technique. But the sheer number of farmers overwhelms undefended dplexing alts as they are chased from the plexes by farmers or groups of farmers. The last time, I can recall, GalMil faced this issue was Fall 13 when TEST joined CalMil. As you loose systems, the farmers have fewer places to farm and unprotected dplexing alts are less and less effective. This forces the active PVPers to gate-camp and chase the farmers as their game play.

      Finally, what changes would you recommend to the tier system?

      • As you may or may not know. I find a lot of content defending my alts.

        Just an idea.

        • We realize that and from a game mechanics perspective there’s no issue with it. You’re at your computer playing eve. Unlike the farmers, you engage in PVP and your participation is informed by GalMil goals. You choose to play multiple accounts instead of one or two that’s your choice

  6. FW should be based on PvP, skill and organisation, not profit. Whether that means for better or worse from a Cal Mil perspective.

    Surely the Gallente… who by their own opinion believe they are better PvP pilots would rather a system where superior combat skill wins systems, rather then farmers who run away from anything bigger then a shuttle.

    Its easy for Gal Mil to shun this article as whining or saltyness, given that its through the efforts of these farmers (and not actual pvp alliances) that they are currently holding a majority of the warzone. After all, other then RDRAW, I personally have not seen anyone from any other large Gal Mil corp or Alliance o-plexing or d-plexing for at least six months, but why would they need to be in the current farmers epidemic?

    • Attack a home system. You’ll get all the pvp you want. You’ll see more pvp skill and organization from the Gallente than you could ever want.

      Other Gal Mil corps don’t o-plex or d-plex in earnest because we don’t want to completely destroy the ecosystem of the warzone.

      Maybe some members in RDRAW want to “win” FW like the other Gal Mil Corps have done twice already. Or maybe they like the fights. Who knows? What I do know is that if every Gallente FW corp operated at that pace the Caldari would go extinct.

      • That is true, attacking a home system would be a reasonable way to get PvP.

        However, you have to concede that its near enough impossible to do that whilst people who want to PvP, should be doing PvP, are instead chasing warp stabbed LP farmers across multiple systems in a effort to hold important systems.

        You must see how without these farmers taking up their time, there would be the opportunity for PvP pilots on both sides to have content, even possibly put your theory to the test and see who goes extinct?

  7. Thanatos Marathon

    The tier system could use a bit of smoothing on the payouts so the low end isn’t so low and the high end isn’t so high, and reword it so tier1 is the base and people don’t think of it as a penalty.

    Decent rewards for system upgrade level that applied only to FW pilots and corps would be neat as well.

    Additionally, you could disconnect Mission payouts from the Tier level and just peg them at what would currently be tier 2.5 or Tier3 type values.

    • Yeah, I’m not sure the tier system needs to be completely done away with but some work is needed. The Tier 1 level is harsh. To claw your way back from it, others are saying “recruit more corps” but being at T1, there isn’t much of an LP incentive to use to recruit corps and to the author’s point, the idea of hunting farmers and deplexing isn’t a good selling point either. They could come to Low Sec as pirates, ignore the farmers, and have even more targets by not enrolling in FW is PvP is all they care about. Additionally, the LP payouts, while they favor members of a corp, they don’t benefit the Corp or Alliance themselves since there isn’t a way to tax them/generate income at those levels in FW. That also hurts the recruitment of corps to FW.

  8. Kill missions tier 1 for lyf you are all bads.

  9. https://i.imgflip.com/17106n.jpg

    Think about it, get back to me.

    • Silverbackyererse

      Or in the case of FW, maybe try plexing a bit more?
      The mechanic to improve your lot in the warzone is already there – you just need to use it.

      Take your 30 man fleets – who will get blapped sooner or later by a half decent entity anyway – and split them into ten 3 man fleets. Go plex.

      You will get fights, you will create pressure and you will take systems.

      When you take systems you don’t sit in tier one left with nothing to do but complain about the impact of farmers – a problem which you created by letting the opponent gain a two tier advantage – most likely because you didn’t plex as much as you should have.

      FW is a simple thing. Keep is simple stupid(s).

  10. I was proposing FW LP changes for years, no one cared or had beautiful counter argument “learn defplex with alts”. The ONLY way how to stop farmer scourge is to remove LPs from systems that aren’t directly connected to enemy controled space. Ppl can still plex in quiet systems, but for system control and not ISK farming.
    Sure it will remove “pilots” from space, but they were stabbed anyway so who cares, this will return FW to hands of pvp pilots again.

  11. I am pretty happy with how the plexing mechanic works as it is overall, maybe a few small tweaks. The biggest thing i don’t like is missioning and how it is tied into the ebb and flow of tiers and how farmers can game it to make huge LP piles. Farming on mains or alts creates a pretty fluid dynamic and movement of the systems that active and vigilant militia groups can take advantage of. I have to say i think this is mostly just Caldari being super upset about how down in the gutter they are.

    I remember when i first joined Gal Mil, we had like 8 systems tops, Caldari farmers were everywhere, and nobody moaned about farming in the Gal ranks, only how we had to hold our line until something changed and we could make our move.

    I remember when TEST came, and we didn’t moan about the thousands of additional pilots your side got and farmed us into oblivion, we held our line

    Recently, I remember when our LP was dumpstered and amarr was on the up, and a tide of amarr farmers came over and just plexed everything to near vuln, we got over that too.

    Additionally, it has always been my observation that Caldari system flipping strategy is to let farmers plex a system to 80-90% and just ninja snipe it, so you really would have nothing, if not for farmers.

    Maybe this whole article is just a cry for help and you should all take up a dialogue within Cal Mil about what to do to climb out, rather then just pout.

    • Roy I don’t know when you joined GalMil so I can’t comment on the first bit. I joined CalMil shortly before TEST arrived. I remember that time and it was a lot of hard fighting by GalMil to hold the line.

      As I thought about this issue, it still seems like a bad mechanic.The number of systems a militia controls is heavily influenced by the farmers. We’ve all learned to weaponize them and have done it successfully at different times. Weaponizing the farmers is dependent on holding the majority of the systems in the WZ to make the tier system math work. Therefore it’s a mechanic that inherently reinforces the status quo; keeping the militia that most recently controlled the majority of the WZ on top barring a mass exodus of players/corps from that militia as happened to CalMil when TEST left FW and more recently to Amarr. In Min-Amarr space an article on this website sites weaponizing the farmers as one of their major campaign goals and reasons for Minmatar’s recent victory.

      Eliminating the tier system and locking in plex value at some pre-determined amount doesn’t eliminate the farmers influence as we’ve seen when Cal & Gal are both at tier 2. But the number of vulnerable systems and the level of vulnerability for each system has a more equitable distribution for both militias. This creates opportunities to loose or acquire systems, the PVP this brings and adds to strategic gameplay.

      • You want pvp? You dont fight anyway. The Bloc goes out in rolling gate camp with instalock no prop condors and its fleets set runaway from even fights to maximum. Templis is now your prop up for getting fleet action. They actually know how to fight.

        Your LP is worth twice ours, put it to work, take some systems and quit whinging. note: you might actually have to pvp to take some systems.

        • Now I know why Walkers just issued a massive recall on Salt and Vinegar Crisps. You took all the salt didn’t you?

      • Sometimes you are winning occupancy. Sometimes you are losing. Some of these times last a long time for various reasons.

        The point is that you can still log in and you can still create content. Currently you can still dock in your desired home system.

        Even if you had no systems, you can still dock in high sec and form fleets.

        Occupancy creates a nice strategic level to FW but ultimately it doesnt matter that much.

        Occupancy should be seen as a content creator, not necessarily the most meaningful content in and of itself.

    • @Roy

      >I remember when i first joined Gal Mil, we had like 8 systems tops, Caldari farmers were everywhere, and nobody moaned about farming in the Gal ranks, only how we had to hold our line until something changed and we could make our move.

      I’m not sure whether it’s the TEST days you are referring to but, if so, I’m afraid your memory is deeply faulty. The biggest topic of discussion re: FW on the warfare and tactics forum and occasional major threads in GD derived from Gallente pilots pushing hard for reductions in the effectiveness of farmers so that they could PvP more. Do you really not remember the massive GalMil push for timer rollbacks, amongst other things, so you wouldn’t have to run timers down after pushing a farmer out of a plex?

      Perhaps you would like to have a look at this 17 page thread monstrosity:

      http://eve-search.com/thread/303513-1/page/1

      That’s 17 pages of GalMil pilots doing precisely what you denied they have ever done: complaining about farmers when they had their backs to the wall. Parallel to that and going on as long as the summer of 2014, how to defang farmers was probably the biggest public topic of conversation among GalMil pilots. It stopped after Gallente dominance was reasserted and after the changes that were brought in to stop the farming pendulum (a change that had the effect of permanently advantaging the stronger side) but damn were you guys vocal at the time.

      So let’s abandon this rewriting of history, shall we?

      • While dragging this gem up did give me a good laugh, it also reminded me just how little has actually changed since then. In the subsequent three years we’ve seen anti-cloak bubbles (useless), respawning rats (useless), DUST has come and gone (fairly useless, with a few notable exceptions), and one new ship for each faction. Oh, I’m forgetting the mission changes (because you totally can’t run Gallente FW missions in a stealth bomber, and I totally don’t have the kill mails to prove otherwise).

        Proposed and promised features like suspect timers for entering plexes, a four-way war, and roaming npc patrols have been repeatedly pushed back or shelved entirely.

        The problem is that FW by its very definition makes any kind of consensus on what consistutes a “healthy battlefield” virtually impossible. We’ll continue to bicker and moan as power shifts back and forth, proposing various solutions we can each game to our advantage, and eventually end up back where we started.

        Eventually, the time will come when FW gets some attention from the devs and if we don’t know what we want, we’ll be stuck with what they give us. Presumably this will be dictated to us by people with little investment in the war itself.

        Once upon a time, we fought a war for control of systems. Now we appear to be embroiled in a battle for the affectations of parasitic free-loaders. I know which I preferred, but to each their own I suppose.

      • Woosh, where is the like button on this pitiful excuse for a Reddit subforum?

        But yeah, just as expected. If GalMil were in Calmil shoes, they’d be arguing just the same point as Myra.

  12. When are goons joining cal mil?

  13. Webbing rats killed the Caldari militia. Its not like pve runners make a difference in terms of combat, but their LP contributions to reinforcement does.

    Amarr also gained a small boost after this update but now Minmatar magically steamrolled them. I dont know much about that front, but something tells me that farmers are not that common there anymore, at least not as much as the old caldari side.

  14. You all are missing one important thing, farmer issue is just one of the symptoms of bad FW mechanics we have right now.
    We are facing these 4 issues:
    1. Plexing has become way how to get ISK.
    2. Def plexing is painful and useless in current “era” of stabed afk farmers.
    3. Farmers are milking FW tier with no interested in FW, just for getting ISK.
    4. FW has become stale!

    Now solution can be hard and requires masive change in mechanics. Some of you says that tier system bonuses must be changed, or tier linked only to missions. I agree with those, but there is crucial thing that has to be changed and those are plexes and rewards.

    FactionWar should be about border friction, so why we are getting paid LPs from plexes all around war zone? Imagine we would be getting LPs only at bordering systems. This would increase pvp activity at hot spots, factions would be forced to take systems to expand borders and afk ISK farmers would be gone, they don’t want to farm active systems, they want dead end systems, but those will have no reward now.

    Defensive plexing is all against logic now, why should pilots spend hours of their game time just for fixing some mess done by some farmer who has no interested in actual fw? I propose implementing mechanic that will slowly decrease system contested level if opposing militia didn’t capture plex in some time period. This is logical, npc navy defending system should rebuild over time if there is no enemy.

    Tier will affect plexes payouts, missions will stay at t2 payouts. Such simple change will bring plexes back to hands of PvPers and those isk farmers will have to move on or risk ships by doing missions.

  15. That was mostly QCATS who already at that time didnt do much more than log in and defend Nisuwa.

    Also, at that time, the factionwide VP scores were smashing the 100,000 mark day in day out for all 4 factions and that didnt include the significant levels of diagonal farming.

    To say that because some hardcore homebodies who had ocd about keeping their system stable under such pressure, went to the forums to make some suggestions about a massively broken system, is analogous with cal mil complaining now under a system that operates with ~5-6x less farming alt pressure would be inaccurate.

    Inferno mechanics were outrageously bad given the docking rights that came with them.

    The current mechanics are fine. They may support the status quo. But it doesnt take too much effort to overcome that. The alternative, where the mechanics do not support the status quo would lead to a swinging pendulum mostly driven by farmers rather than a status quo partially serviced by farmers.

    • Well, what about getting some plex mechanic that will completely remove LP farming from plexes?

      • Mainly because the only way to disenfranchise the farmers is to disenfranchise everyone else.

        Having an isk making mechanic so closely tied in to pvp is a benefit. Its not even close.

        • Don’t you think plexing should be pure pvp area and missions for LP farm?
          Just removing LPs from plexes or making them frontline, boosting LP for enemy kill to 50-80% of real ship value, will fix all the issues we have right now.
          It’s time for new system, sandbox is nice but its only applicable in null space. FW should be forcing pilots to do FW pvp, and who cares if we loose some sandboxy feeling if we get fun and more dynamic system. Even stupid incursion mechanic would be better than the one we have right now.
          Most ppl in FW right now are more like pirates, they are looking just for pvp and are avoiding FW at all cost.

          • Nope, i think you care more about system ownership than you do about driving content.

            I know this to be true as i saw you get hyper stressed while i was pushing your back end systems in and you are unable to even slow me down.

            Because your priorities lie in occupancy, i understand why you want incentives to be moved from occupancy to other activities.

            My priority is people in space in pvp fits. Im willing to accept that farmers will come along with that and harass occupancy in systems that neither of us should care about (but for some reason you do). As long as everyone has a good idea where to go to get actual pvp by antagonising the enemy to undock and defend more important systems.

            The system is perfectly fine. You just need to relax and rescale your expectations with your ever changing capacity to effect outcomes.

          • What exactly will force ppl to stop flying pvp ships in war zone, if plexes will have payouts only in bordering systems and lp payouts from kills will be higher?
            It would produce way more content in long term. Get your head out of arse and realize we aren’t null but in FW. We are supposed to be doing occupancy warfare and not stupid meaningless undock pvp. Whole point of FW is border friction so why we have this empty free plex system?

            I know it would make your pvp/farming style harder, but I’m willing to accept it.

          • You think limiting incentives to fight to border systems will create more content in the long run, by choking content in 80-90% of the warzone for all time?

            This is a bold faced.. assertion. I cant fathom any basis in logic.

            This will promote blobs, and stagnate smaller scale content.

            Again, you suggest that we play FW to primarily fight for occupancy. Ironically, you also suggest that my principles are somewhat aligned with nullsec when in reality, you seem more interested in the name in the top lift corner of the screen. That is a little null-esque imo

            I think its more important to encourage people to undock warzone-wide and create content.

            I can tell you are still a little strung out from the hazing i gave you and diamonddog in your back passage fjudging by the language in parts of your post. Its ok mate, rather than complain about it, i might just put up a fortizar in Uuna.

  16. How about reshaping the system:

    The lower the tier, the greater the PVP rewards (deplexing and kills).
    The higher the tier, the more LP you get from PVE.

    This way, weakened factions get an incentive to attack, while strong ones get a bonus to farming. The incentive is still there for the strongest since farming gives good income (better than normal plexing or killing), but at the same time the ones with lower tiers are better off just fighting. THe buff for the pvp part should be significant at lower tiers.

    Its the simplest damn thing! CCP is asleep man.

  17. I don’t agree with all Ylein’s ideas but the Tier System is fundamentally broken. Crosi I think your comment that the Tier System reinforces the status quo is further justification for it’s removal. A game mechanic that sustains the dominant position of the last side that “won” is not a good mechanic. Ultimately it hurts the winning militia because they are deprived of content because the “losing” side is struggling to rebuild and have a mechanic working against them.

    The ISK making opportunities in FW have to be sustained a solid point made by Crosi and XGal. I agree, it’s the reason I recommended locking plex payouts at Tier 2 after eliminating the Tier System. The LP data might set a higher LP payout call it 2.5 but the fact that it is static will limit the weaponization of the farmers.

    Occupancy has another impact we haven’t spoken of. It influences player/organizational decisions about what faction to join in FW. Players want to join the “winning” side; it can’t be proven but makes sense. A quick look at the occupancy map and tiers will often determine what militia someone joins. Consequently, a system that reinforces the status quo after a militia “wins” is a bad mechanic. The militia that just “won” gets stronger and the “defeated” struggles to become relevant; depriving the victor of FW PVP as well. The weaponization of farmers is the single greatest influencer of occupancy.

    • I didnt say it reinforced a status quo. I said it supports the status quo which is much less loaded language. All it takes to counter the effect of farmers is for one pvper to be in system. I do not feel that is too much effort to quell this bogeyman..

      If the losing militia cannot have 1 pilot in a system they are interested in taking to keep the farmers at bay, they do not deserve to make progress.

      Remove the tier system and instead of player organisations having a strategic level influence over farming, the farmers will be driven by faceless market forces as isk/hr shifts from one faction to another.

      I am in favor of taming the tier system though, there is no need for tier 4 & 5 and tier 1 and 3 could perhaps be a little more subtle.

      I have yet to see a single militia ‘lose’ and then fail to ever ‘come back’. This real world fact flies in the face of your ‘feedback loop’ argument with farmers.

      Sure cal mil has not been on top for quite some time. But i challenge you to make a case that the levels of occupancy in our warzone DO NOT directly represent activity levels, man power, teamwork and effort put in by each of our militias.

  18. I agree that the LP payouts for plexes should be smoothed a little. I do feel for the Caldari at tier 1 who have never experienced much time at tier 3 months or so.

    As for PVP action, purely speaking from mainly a solo pilot I actively deny content to MBLOC and Templis 90% of the time for the simple reason that yall do not PVP unless you can bring the blob. If yall have noticed, a good deal of Gall Mill flies solo or in fleets less than a full squad of 10. We often refer to the roaming blob that either severely over escalates or remains docked up as a form of FW cancer. Very few of your pilots will undock and just go look for a fight without that blob. If you want more PVP content from the vast number of solo and 3 to 4 person fleets Gall Mill constantly has roaming the war zone you should start shedding that blob the shit out us reputation. We know 9 times out of 10 that if Myra enters system there is a large fleet waiting behind the gate. Gall Mill could very easily counter yall but it takes too much effort to form a counter fleet only to have yall turn away at the idea you may lose a few ships.

    I see many more Cal Mil than pirates/neutrals in the WZ but get most of my fights from non Cal Mil. Figure out how to change that and your PVP horizons will expand significantly.

  19. Crosi….Valid point “support the status quo” I stand corrected. As for the farmers, also true, 2-3 active PVPers can counter farmers in 2-3 systems. It requires active PVPers to chase ghosts and does not constitute engaging game play; which is my larger point. Especially when the dominant militia can force this tactic without committing any of its active PVPers to it. Preserving its active PVPers for the fights that matter and sustaining the mechanic supported status quo. I fear taming the differences in tiers won’t be enough. Recent history shows a healthier war zone when the two sides are at the same tier. Strategic game play is one of the great aspects of FW. I submit that the strategic game play the current tier system delivers is sub-standard and ultimately harmful to FW.

    Burtakas….Thanks for your comments on the tier system. You seek solo PVP. Enjoy, you’re good at it. MBLOC seeks small gang and small fleet engagements hence we move around the WZ organized for the PVP we desire. And you’re right, I prefer small gang and up over solo at this point in my Eve career. Fortunately, the WZ provides both types of content.

  20. I agree wholehearedly with the OP. The tier system absolutely sucks. I find the premise that my LP are affected by the actions of players not really engaging in FW highly irritating. Also, bumping the LP reward for actual combat (as opposed to watching a timer count down) would encourage the content we all want. Nice work Myra.

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